@ KPX :

Just a complete disregard for crunchers ....

No. You've received the inevitable answer given the plainly stated context here, and you're upset because I stated the obvious that you evidently haven't picked up on yet.

...

You fail to realize an important fact. BOINC crunchers have valid expectations of new projects.

BOINC was setup to draw volunteers to donate time and money to interesting scientific projects, in exchange for nothing more than the fun of collecting credits. That is the unwritten contract between projects and crunchers. Projects "promise" to do interesting non-commercial (mostly) science and behave fairly in giving fair credit, and crunchers "promise" to donate time on their HW and help the project developers with feedback on the forums.
This is a "contract" that was validated by most crunchers' experience on most projects. And that was the expectation here at Albert@home as well.

Regarding your contributions here, Mike, there is nothing polite in them, not your tone, and not the content. You have not stated the obvious, you have stated the unexpected. Yours is not even disregard, it's a plain contempt... and a blatant breach of the above mentioned "contract". Well, I just hope the projects that treat crunchers fairly remain in majority.

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i knew this would happen..

them hardcore crunchers out here and a project which went public and now is telling us this was not intended.

did anyone out here break open the doors?

do you really think you can get all the different platforms and setups for testing anywhere else than from us - not even talking about for nothing but credits?

get serious, think twice and pull the plug or not.

FWIW, my view is that stats are exported they are free to be used by anyone. Doesn't take much effort to look in the stats directory and see if there are any up to date tables in there; If there are, use them :)

You come into a shop, and find a penny on the floor. You silently put that in your pocket, claiming it yours. Next day you come into the same shop and find another penny. Again, you put it in your pocket. And so the next day. And the next. And so forth for a month. Then comes a day where you don't find a penny. What do you do? Sue the owner of the shop?

BM

You come into a shop ...

Slightly odd analogy :)

But then I live in the Utopian world where BOINC is open, relies on the generosity of volunteers and has a strong community spirit. I should take off my rose-tinted spectacles perhaps :)

Dude, I'm on your side.

Wipe the stats and get DA to ask the stats sites to remove the cached stats. That's a joke BTW :)

It was unfortunate that stats ever got exported. The best exit strategy for all concerned seems to be the path you've taken - Export for a while, then stop having warned everyone. Then we can all stay friends :)

Al.

It does say if you care about Credits then this project is certainly not the right one for you. That's fine & I'm sure if we're helping then we don't really care about the Credits but as in all other Previous Test Projects before this one the Participants were rewarded with some sort of Credit however small it was.

Most of us know things go bad in a Test Project but we're willing to put up with it for that little bit of Reward so that's where some of the Expectations came in probably ... IMHO

Is this general consensus?

So far I didn't know and didn't care about "all other Previous Test Projects", that's why I asked D.A.

I certainly don't care about credit at all here, and all I want is not to have to.

If you (and the stat sites) can live with credit "however small it is", being granted unreliably and fluctuating, and won't complain whatever happens, I could as well leave the stats export on. After all, it's just a switch in the project configuration.

BM

If you (and the stat sites) can live with credit "however small it is", being granted unreliably and fluctuating, and won't complain whatever happens, I could as well leave the stats export on. After all, it's just a switch in the project configuration.

That works for me. It is what happens at other test projects, so I would expect others would be fine with it too. Or at least they would be used to to it. I will be around regardless.

---

Dublin, California
Team: SETI.USA

Is this general consensus?

most likely - you won't find drive-by crunchers here, but probably only those of us who dare...

So far I didn't know and didn't care about "all other Previous Test Projects", that's why I asked D.A.

that's another misconecption!

DA has his very own ideas - and sometimes this has absolutely nothing to do with what those people think that provide the cycles to run boincworld.

If you (and the stat sites) can live with credit "however small it is", being granted unreliably and fluctuating, and won't complain whatever happens, I could as well leave the stats export on.

grant a single credit for every WU and call it a deal.

After all, it's just a switch in the project configuration.

not really - all that hassle about a switch? ;)

@ KPX : You're the victim of your own assumptions and contradictions - I suggest that you re-read yourself and reflect.

@ Frank :

get serious, think twice and pull the plug or not.

As Bernd just said "I certainly don't care about credit at all here, and all I want is not to have to." and "and won't complain whatever happens"

In any case, this ground is now old, whatever precepts that you thought that you arrived with. You should be certainly under no illusions now.

Cheers, Mike.

---

"I have made this letter longer than usual, because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal

FWIW, my view is that stats are exported they are free to be used by anyone. Doesn't take much effort to look in the stats directory and see if there are any up to date tables in there; If there are, use them :)

You come into a shop, and find a penny on the floor. You silently put that in your pocket, claiming it yours. Next day you come into the same shop and find another penny. Again, you put it in your pocket. And so the next day. And the next. And so forth for a month. Then comes a day where you don't find a penny. What do you do? Sue the owner of the shop?

BM

Except that you are the one taking the pennies!!! LOL

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@ KPX : You're the victim of your own assumptions and contradictions - I suggest that you re-read yourself and reflect.
...

No need to do so. I know what I write. You don't seem to.
BOINC I do for fun. You spoil it, for no reason. That's silly. You have fun doing that?

---

Bernd wrote:

BTW: In what sense is Albert@Home different from an alpha test project, in particular related to credit?

Seeing how some people here still see Albert as a separate project, I'll use Bernd's question. This project differs from alpha or beta projects in that it will never be a full project on its own. Once they have the applications and back-end working here, they move those to the main project (Einstein), and I assume they shut this down, until they have more to test.

The alpha and beta projects mentioned will run work, be it just to keep the users happy, while they aren't testing anything. That's presumably not going to be the case here.

In the case of starting up a project, it'll go through alpha or beta stages, and will eventually grow into a full production project. That's also not the case here.

---

Jord.

BOINC FAQ Service

They say most of your brain shuts down in cryo-sleep. All but the primitive side, the animal side. No wonder I'm still awake.

Bernd wrote:

BTW: In what sense is Albert@Home different from an alpha test project, in particular related to credit?

Seeing how some people here still see Albert as a separate project, I'll use Bernd's question. This project differs from alpha or beta projects in that it will never be a full project on its own. Once they have the applications and back-end working here, they move those to the main project (Einstein), and I assume they shut this down, until they have more to test

Right. Albert is like RALPH, SETI Beta, and Amelegrid Testgrid. These are all dedicated test projects too. They will never progress to "production" status.

The need for separate projects (any more) is not clear to me. A while back, they added the functionality in the BOINC server code to have opt-in on test apps/tasks for users. That allows the project to have test work available to only those that opt into it, in their project preferences. It seem to me that way would be less work for projects. But whatever, it works either way.

---

Dublin, California
Team: SETI.USA

The need for separate projects (any more) is not clear to me. A while back, they added the functionality in the BOINC server code to have opt-in on test apps/tasks for users. That allows the project to have test work available to only those that opt into it, in their project preferences. It seem to me that way would be less work for projects. But whatever, it works either way.

From the original post Ageless was referring to:

We can and would test new applications (and application versions) either privately or on the main project. What we intend to test on Albert is server side code that can't be tested on the main project without risking serious damage. The OpenCL support of BOINC requires server side modifications, too, that's why we test the OpenCL apps here.

BM

Ah. Well there you go. Good to know about the server-side stuff.

---

Dublin, California
Team: SETI.USA

After all, it's just a switch in the project configuration.

not really - all that hassle about a switch? ;)

Not really. It's more about the (possible, imagined) commitment I make with flipping that switch in one or the other direction.

Might sound weird, but indeed I am new to "public test projects". I was pretty surprised when some months ago I heard that Albert@Home was known to anyone outside the inner circle of Einstein@Home developers.

BM

I think if not consensus then atleast alot of people will help out as long as you need their help.

I think.
When app is complete and moved to Main, people will follow and continue to use it on Main. And some people will continue with other alpha beta projects to help the boinc community grow...

And I also think that when app is "complete and working".
It will be tested more and improvement of the app will continue to it's perfection here at non-alpha/beta project.

A penny is a penny.
A credit is just a number.
Boinc community is based and built on thoose numbers.

I start to think here wheather the question at hand is: Do you want our help here..... I think you can benefit from us, but I might also be wrong.


//TQ







Is this general consensus?

So far I didn't know and didn't care about "all other Previous Test Projects", that's why I asked D.A.

I certainly don't care about credit at all here, and all I want is not to have to.

If you (and the stat sites) can live with credit "however small it is", being granted unreliably and fluctuating, and won't complain whatever happens, I could as well leave the stats export on. After all, it's just a switch in the project configuration.

BM
[/quote]

---

Albert@Home stats are currently being exported, I intend to shut this down late this week. There will be a news item (including RSS) at least 24h in advance.

But I still like to understand what happened here, how & why people that are only interested in credit ever attached a host to this project. This project was never meant to attract this kind of attention. I'd like to avoid such misunderstanding in the future.

BM

On checking your project, I see that you are a BOINC project. You are running their software and you advertised how to join your project. BOINC projects are credit based projects as the only thank you a project can give to a user is via a metric called cobbnlestones or credits. Your project be it a Test or Alpha project contributes nothing towards the maintenance of our machines or to the cost of Electricity. The least you could do to thank those that have contributed their time and cost to help you is to advertize those credits given by exporting the stats. If you do not wish to give credit, that is your provocative but you should not be using BOINC software for private testing.

Well, this thready is already plenty long, so I guess my .02 won't hurt.

I never understood the deal with credit/cobblestones anyway. I thought the 1 credit per 1 WU from the original Seti@home was just fine.

/shrug

In any case, psychologically I think 0 is a little nebulous for some people. I think as long as there is some indicator of contribution, most are happy. As far as alpha testing goes, I'm just here to help the OpenCL along so I can use my ATi Gpu's and could care less about credit in this setting.

---

I have finished one WU on my CPU after 61 hours and I got the same credit of a wingman using OpenCL who finished in little more than one hour, but I knew the rules of the game and accepted them. I am also running Test4Theory@home first as an Alpha and now as a Beta project. I like testing new software, otherwise BOINC programs are just dull.
Tullio

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BOINC projects are credit based projects as the only thank you a project can give to a user is via a metric called cobbnlestones or credits.

Where does it say that a project needs to give credits/cobblestones?
Where does it say how many?
Where does it say that those have to be exported?

And again, to explain further what this project does, Bernd wrote in this message:

We can and would test new applications (and application versions) either privately or on the main project. What we intend to test on Albert is server side code that can't be tested on the main project without risking serious damage. The OpenCL support of BOINC requires server side modifications, too, that's why we test the OpenCL apps here.

---

Jord.

BOINC FAQ Service

They say most of your brain shuts down in cryo-sleep. All but the primitive side, the animal side. No wonder I'm still awake.