Just 500 credit for 20+ hours of crunching is not much, given the risks associated with these units, with testing where, as you say, "Don't expect ANYTHING to work here". Perhaps we deserve a bonus for crunching for such an uncertain project, wouldn't you think?
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Bernd MachenschalkVolunteer moderator
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No.
Also from the front page: "Most of the time Albert@Home will have no work to run at all, and when it has, the applcations are experimental, might be unstable, unreliable and may even damage your computer. Validation might be unreliable and we may cancel workunits without prior notice. If you care about credit, this project is certainly not the right one for you."
Also see my post here. Albert@home doesn't even export stats.
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Hm. Credit is the only currency we crunchers get for crunching. Strange that you feel giving credit would cost you something... All u get for credit is more crunchers. Is that bad for this project?
And why not to export stats? All projects test stuff from time to time. So what if servers need to be reset, units canceled, etc., it can happen in other projects as well. I crunch many alpha and beta projects. And they still try to treat crunchers somewhat normally...
But from your post I'm getting the feeling that discussion is not appropriate here, perhaps even asking questions like this. Well, couldn't help it. If things don't feel right, they don't feel right.
Otherwise, good luck in testing and developing the project. And this I mean sincerely.
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Albert@Home isn't an alpha or beta project, it's merely a testing ground for new applications for Einstein@Home. It's no use to attach your whole farm here, there's only need for so much testing.
Once the application and its back-end (feeder, assimilator, validator, scheduler) is deemed to work without too many problems, it can go to the main project, Einstein, where you can rack up all the credit in the world for it.
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Several projects have alternate development sites (RALPH, SETI Beta, etc), and they *all* issue credits. They export them too. No reason to *not* award credits for work done.
As for how much/little to award, it doesn't matter, so long as the credit remain internally consistent. Cross-project parity is impossible anyway.
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Bernd MachenschalkVolunteer moderator
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Albert@Home isn't an alpha or beta project, it's merely a testing ground for new applications for Einstein@Home.
[nitpick] Not precisely. We can and would test new applications (and application versions) either privately or on the main project. What we intend to test on Albert is server side code that can't be tested on the main project without risking serious damage. The OpenCL support of BOINC requires server side modifications, too, that's why we test the OpenCL apps here. [/nitpick]
BTW: In what sense is Albert@Home different from an alpha test project, in particular related to credit?
Several projects have alternate development sites (RALPH, SETI Beta, etc), and they *all* issue credits. They export them too. No reason to *not* award credits for work done.
I asked David Anderson about how they handle credit "on Alpha test projects". His answer was "I ignore them, and I don't run the script that exports statistics.". Thus I decided to do the same here. Did I get wrong information?
The point for me is that having to care about credit generates an amount of work (thinking, maintenance) that I don't want to commit to for a project where I may want to test something completely different. If workunits turn out to don't work for an application I want to cancel these. If for some malfunction of me or a daemon (or just for comparison) I decide to restore an old copy of the database, I will do this. If I just want to watch how one credit system compares to a different one, I'd like to run both systems in parallel or one after the other. In any of these cases (and many more) I don't want to spend time thinking about and taking measurements against people losing their valuable credits, and won't apologize for anything that goes wrong. Something going wrong is the normal case on test projects, it's the reason why these are there.
I think I didn't miss any opportunity (front page, announcements, forum posts) to point out that I don't care about credit over here, and don't want to have to; and that if you do, you shouldn't run Albert@Home but sign up for the main project.
This decision isn't final, though. When certain development currently going on here has settled a bit and we need a larger community for testing something else, I may find that worth the work to commit to proper "credit management". But not right now. I certainly have all my hands full with a lot of other things.
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That's all fair enough, and you've certainly made it clear in enough places regarding credit :)
But just a couple of points:
The hardcore milestone collectors will crunch *any* project that's available to them (that includes me BTW, 110 projects and rising). I took the risk, got some credit, quite happy despite losing loads of pending credit a while ago.
Your user base was inherited from Einstein, so you automatically got a whole bunch of people who were bound to be interested. Maybe if you'd started out as 'invite code only' ... But I can see that would have taken more time/effort than this approach.
As for turning off stats export, how about either leaving it running until a clearly defined date, or run it just once more at some time in the future. Maybe set the cutoff time to the dealine of the WUs (2 weeks IIRC?). And announce it in big red capitals on the front page ;) Perhaps you could email it to everyone, but I don't know how much effort that would take.
Personally, I'm not bothered whatever happens. But I can understand the angst of others :)
Cheers,
Al.
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Bernd MachenschalkVolunteer moderator
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Your user base was inherited from Einstein,
The user table was copied from Einstein. But no host that was attached to Einstein was automatically attached to Albert.
As for turning off stats export, how about either leaving it running until a clearly defined date
That's certainly worth a thought. I'm still pretty busy with other things (download server), but I'll try to arrange for that.
BM
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Several projects have alternate development sites (RALPH, SETI Beta, etc), and they *all* issue credits. They export them too. No reason to *not* award credits for work done.
I asked David Anderson about how they handle credit "on Alpha test projects". His answer was "I ignore them, and I don't run the script that exports statistics.". Thus I decided to do the same here. Did I get wrong information?
Yes, DA was not accurate.
DA has one "test BOINC clients" project, aka BOINC alpha, does not do real work (just UPPERCASE), and *does not* export stats.
On the other hand, his SETI Beta project, which tests new apps and sub-projects, and does real work, *does* exports stats.
And RALPH, which is the alpha project for Rosetta@home, which tests new apps, and does real work, *does* exports stats.
Amelegrid Testgrid (an active test project for Amelegrid), also exports stats.
ABC@home also had a test project, and exported stats.
Malaria Control had a test project, and they exported stats.
Cels@home also had a test project, and they exported stats.
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I'm rather boggled by the queries here. Which part of "If you care about credit, this project is certainly not the right one for you." ( .... etc ) was unclear ? :-)
So hence quite explicitly the 'user contract' for Albert@Home is exactly that - don't ever assume credit. No surprise. As Bernd says we don't/won't have the capability/interest/manpower to account for the user credit concerns of those at Albert.
So if the question now reverts to "let's change the definition of Albert@Home" then E@H loses the primary purpose for Albert existing at all - a simple playpen for technical testing un-encumbered by the more complex milieu that applies to E@H.
What is or is not done elsewhere ( +/- Mr Anderson ) is a non-question, and argument by plurality is a non-sequitir also. We aren't elsewhere, we're here. :-)
So to be excruciatingly precise : you ought not be surprised/offended for the refusal to alter the machinations of this project !
This reminds me of a sign in a local shop "don't ask for credit as a refusal often offends" ..... :-)
Cheers, Mike.
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As I have ream in other projects forums...
The boinc system is based on credits so we crunch for credits.
So my sugestion is. Use a fixed credit system. And export stats if possible.
If you want just a few people helping out: a small credit for each task.
If you feel the need for more people, just increase the credit and put a notice in for instance in www.boincstats.com and more people will join.
And let people know what kind of hardware you are developing the application for.
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So I guess :
A simple "NO you can't" from a program developer would have been a nice reply
hasn't suited you for this thread then ? ;-)
Cheers, Mike.
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Well, I downgraded boinc manager to 6.12.34 and installed Catalyst 11.9
Cat 11.9 works with all other projects on my ATI 5850 except for SETI(lunatics astropulse app), well it works and uses 100% CPU(an ATI bug they say).
So I am sad that I now can't do any tasks here.
But I'll be around reading the forum, maybe there soon will be a stable boinc 6.13 soon.
BM 6.13.12 really messed up the scheduling.....
//TQ
So I guess :
A simple "NO you can't" from a program developer would have been a nice reply
hasn't suited you for this thread then ? ;-)
Cheers, Mike.
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...
Cheers, Mike.
Mike,
there are no cheers anywhere in your message. Just a complete disregard for crunchers.
Sorry that I even asked anything in my first message of this thread. So just let it run as it was... as TRuEQ says, at least let's have the stats export running.
Cheers to all the projects that give credit and export stats, as that is the only reward we get for burning electricity and buying expensive hardware to help project owners crunch their stuff, be it science or crap (that we cannot influence).
KPX
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I'm rather boggled by the queries here. Which part of "If you care about credit, this project is certainly not the right one for you." ( .... etc ) was unclear ? :-)
The fact that one can lose crunching time and credits because of whatever reason (bad batch, bad app, etc), that part is always inherent in test projects. That risk is always part of the testing process, and people are used to that.
The unclear (or rather the "surprising") part is where stats were being exported. This attracted a bunch of testers, and now they are being told the tasks in process will not be rewarded (assuming they validate). It would have been nice to be told in advance that this was going to change in advance. That would have given everyone time to empty their queues first, if they did not want to continue testing under the new policy change. I will ask again, Can the stats please be exported one last time (after the server has come back up and we have a change to return work in progress)?
What is or is not done elsewhere ( +/- Mr Anderson ) is a non-question, and argument by plurality is a non-sequitir also. We aren't elsewhere, we're here. :-)
My list was not an argument either for or against exporting stats. The project asked the question, so I answered the question for the project. Simple as that.
Finally, I was never asking for more/less credits. I was (am) just asking for credits, whatever they may be, to continue to be exported. This was in another thread. But that other thread got locked, and discussion was redirected to this one.
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The fact that one can lose crunching time and credits because of whatever reason (bad batch, bad app, etc), that part is always inherent in test projects. That risk is always part of the testing process, and people are used to that.
I have to agree, the Project Abruptly Aborted over 700 Pending Wu's of mine several weeks ago giving the reason the Wu's couldn't be Validated. Yet the very same day the same Types of Wu's were being Validated for other Participants and still are up to this day. I didn't complain about it even though I lost Thousands of Hr's of Processing Time as many of the Wu's were run by CPU & took up to 15 Hr's to run.
I even reported the Gravitational Wave S6 GC search v1.01 (SSE2) Error Messages here >>> http://albert.phys.uwm.edu/forum_thread.php?id=8819 & what was my Reward, 700+ Wu's Aborted by the Project. Thanks for Nothing, the Project got the work done & I got the Green Weenie. Now all I see from the Project is if you don't like it then leave.
Well that's exactly what most Participants will do except for the Die Hards, If the Project can't at least give Credit whatever it may be & Export the Credit's then there's not much to keep most Participants here & you'll end up running the Wu's yourself.
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there's not much to keep most Participants here & you'll end up running the Wu's yourself.
Actually the latter is exactly what this project was originally meant for. We never ever asked anyone to sign up (or use the old Einstein@Home account key here) for this project except for friendly developers in order to develop and test some technical features. (BTW, that's why I still doubt that the Albert@Home participants that do care about credit are the majority, i.e. "most participants".) Exporting stats was rather accidentally, as the configuration was copied over from a working project which exported stats (actually Albert@Home is an old Einstein@Home project server). Albert@Home stats were never intended to be listed anywhere, and e.g. BOINCStats still doesn't include these.
Which stats sites do list Albert@Home, and why? How did they learn about Albert@Home? Until a week ago this project had never been announced anywhere.
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This reminds me of a sign in a local shop "don't ask for credit as a refusal often offends" ..... :-)
too bad this is YOUR local shop. not in real life, but in boincworld. some out here do care for credits, others do not. but crunching without any chance to get ones efforts listed on the stats sites is senseless in boincworld.
if you do not want to run things like other offical test-projects do, just block public access and close the whole case.
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Which stats sites do list Albert@Home, and why?
Free-DC List the Stats from Albert, "Why" apparently they were exported at some point in time, other than that I don't pay attention to the other Sites ... http://stats.free-dc.org/stats.php?page=proj&proj=alb
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[...] in boincworld. some out here do care for credits, others do not.[...]
if you do not want to run things like other offical test-projects do, just block public access and close the whole case.
I don't understand why we should block access for people that aren't interested in credits.
BM
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Free-DC List the Stats from Albert, "Why" apparently they were exported at some point in time
Do these stat sites crawl the web for sites offering BOINC stats files?
BM
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Which stats sites do list Albert@Home, and why?
Mundayweb & Free-DC are two that I know of. But I don't follow many stat sites.
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Look, do whatever you like. It's your project after all. I am only asking that stats be exported one last time (once the server is back up, and people have the opportunity to return the tasks), to cover the work in progress.
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Free-DC List the Stats from Albert, "Why" apparently they were exported at some point in time
Do these stat sites crawl the web for sites offering BOINC stats files?
BM
I don't know, you'd have to ask Bok who runs the Free-DC Site. Usually they don't run the Stats unless they have Permission so I don't know why they were run if Bok didn't have Permission ...
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The only request for permission I ever got was from Willy of BOINCStats a ouple of weeks (maybe months) ago. I'll ask Bruce, but he never told me about such a request, and he certainly wouldn't have granted permission.
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Look, do whatever you like. It's your project after all. I am only asking that stats be exported one last time (once the server is back up, and people have the opportunity to return the tasks), to cover the work in progress.
Same here, at least give us the Credit for what we have done already, if you don't want us running the Project that's fine too, there are plenty of other Projects that are more than glad to have us help them out ... Our Equipment probably isn't up to Developers Standards anyway ... lol
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Albert@Home stats are currently being exported, I intend to shut this down late this week. There will be a news item (including RSS) at least 24h in advance.
But I still like to understand what happened here, how & why people that are only interested in credit ever attached a host to this project. This project was never meant to attract this kind of attention. I'd like to avoid such misunderstanding in the future.
BM
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Albert@Home stats are currently being exported, I intend to shut this down late this week. There will be a news item (including RSS) at least 24h in advance.
But I still like to understand what happened here, how & why people that are only interested in credit ever attached a host to this project. This project was never meant to attract this kind of attention. I'd like to avoid such misunderstanding in the future.
BM
All New Projects Attract this kind of Attention, call it for the going for the Credit's or getting another Project Milestone or just for the Science of it your going to draw Attention.
Nothing said I couldn't join the Project when I found out about it, I read the warnings & took a chance on running the Wu's. I always help out any new Project so the Albert Project got help from me or at least I'd like to think it did anyway.
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@ KPX :
Just a complete disregard for crunchers ....
No. You've received the inevitable answer given the plainly stated context here, and you're upset because I stated the obvious that you evidently haven't picked up on yet.
@zombie :
Continuing non-sequitirs, this project is no more or less than announced.
It's your project after all.
Now you've got it...
@ Steve
if you don't like it then leave.
absolutely correct. Or to be more inclusive if you don't like it then don't turn up. As advertised.
at least give us the Credit
No. We said that before you came.
@ KPX :
Sorry that I even asked anything ..
there's the rub. We announced that you'd get no credit whatsoever, but you asked for it anyway ?
@ Frank
some out here do care for credits
whom we asked not to come here. In large writing on the wall. Many times. In plain language.
if you do not want to run things like other offical test-projects do, just block public access and close the whole case.
No. It's run for our purposes unrelated to any others. Specifically : it's not subject to other definitions.
how & why people that are only interested in credit ever attached a host to this project.
Maybe expectations were raised elsewhere? Certainly wasn't here ..... :-)
Cheers, Mike.
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Wow, with a Attitude like yours Mike I'm sure you'll be in the running for Moderator of the Year ... ;)
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how & why people that are only interested in credit ever attached a host to this project.
Maybe expectations were raised elsewhere? Certainly wasn't here ..... :-)
Precisely. I'd like to understand where.
BM
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LOL. I'm going for Polite Moderator of The Year, actually. :-)
Seriously though : why was there any expectation of credit when exactly the reverse was advertised. Someone somewhere else say something? Wishful thinking?
Cheers, Mike.
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I read in another forum that this was a public project going on here at Albert@home. I guess the roumour spread rapidly since alot of Einstein@home and boinc people want to see an OpenCl app that works and that thoose people are willing to make almost anything to crunch a few tasks for even the smallest amount of credits to help you out in anyway they can.
I hope that you will make this a public einstein beta test(albert@home) so that all the people that can and are willing to contribute with alot of different computor variations and maybe feedback if you need it.
Alot of boinc volounteers help out for a small amount of credit.
Maybe I am just talking rubbish?
Albert@Home stats are currently being exported, I intend to shut this down late this week. There will be a news item (including RSS) at least 24h in advance.
But I still like to understand what happened here, how & why people that are only interested in credit ever attached a host to this project. This project was never meant to attract this kind of attention. I'd like to avoid such misunderstanding in the future.
BM
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I read in another forum that this was a public project going on here at Albert@home. I guess the roumour spread rapidly since alot of Einstein@home and boinc people want to see an OpenCl app that works .... Maybe I am just talking rubbish?
That makes alot of sense.
Bernd : perhaps we've been subject to the rumour mill. That would explain a lot.
Cheers, Mike.
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Seriously though : why was there any expectation of credit when exactly the reverse was advertised.
Stats were being exported. That set the expectation that they would continue to be exported, unless or until there was an announcement of a change in policy. Simple as that.
What non-sequitirs? Can you please be specific? You asked questions, so I thought I was being polite by answering.
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LOL. I'm going for Polite Moderator of The Year, actually. :-)
Seriously though : why was there any expectation of credit when exactly the reverse was advertised. Someone somewhere else say something? Wishful thinking?
Cheers, Mike.
Below is what it say's on the Front Page, nowhere does it say not to join the Project, in fact it say you are welcome to join to test features or fixes.
It does say if you care about Credits then this project is certainly not the right one for you. That's fine & I'm sure if we're helping then we don't really care about the Credits but as in all other Previous Test Projects before this one the Participants were rewarded with some sort of Credit however small it was.
Most of us know things go bad in a Test Project but we're willing to put up with it for that little bit of Reward so that's where some of the Expectations came in probably ... IMHO
Albert@Home is a test project ran by the Einstein@Home team. You are welcome to join if you want to help us test features or fixes that may later be transferred to Einstein@Home. However please keep in mind that this is a test project:
Most of the time Albert@Home will have no work to run at all, and when it has, the applcations are experimental, might be unstable, unreliable and may even damage your computer. Validation might be unreliable and we may cancel workunits without prior notice. If you care about credit, this project is certainly not the right one for you. For short:
Don't expect ANYTHING to work here.
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But I still like to understand what happened here, how & why people that are only interested in credit ever attached a host to this project.
It's not either/or. At least not for me. I am here for *both* helping develop the project *and* getting credits for whatever happens to validate properly. Frankly, I am very interesting in getting the ATI app working properly.
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What non-sequitirs? Can you please be specific?
Nothing you've said has flowed from what we've publicly announced, so I guess that pretty well encompasses all that you've said here .... which is why we're asking about the setting of expectations.
Cheers, Mike.
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But I still like to understand what happened here, how & why people that are only interested in credit ever attached a host to this project. This project was never meant to attract this kind of attention. I'd like to avoid such misunderstanding in the future.
As I said earlier "The hardcore milestone collectors will crunch *any* project that's available to them".
It's not just this project, there's loads of projects out there not listed on stats sites that I/we are attached to. The difference is that at some stage you exported stats. Once that happened, the cat was out of the bag :) Don't know why you started exporting them - Maybe the feature got turned on during a server upgrade or something.
As for finding out about projects, you'll find putting a key phrase from the default text on the front page of your or pretty much any project in Google will find loads of BOINC projects that aren't listed. Also, word of mouth is very important among crunchers. Another source of info is from the WUProp project. That will list all projects that have been run and had stats gathered by it.
FWIW, my view is that stats are exported they are free to be used by anyone. Doesn't take much effort to look in the stats directory and see if there are any up to date tables in there; If there are, use them :) I know some people (OK, 1 person) who disagrees, but it takes all sorts ;)
How to avoid it happening in the future? Make the project invitation code only. Although I think BWT's get invite codes by deafult? Also, don't ever export stats. MOPAC seems to have kept user interest minimal by never exporting stats.
Oh, and thank for starting up the stats export again - Much appreciated!
Al.
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Albert@Home stats are currently being exported, I intend to shut this down late this week. There will be a news item (including RSS) at least 24h in advance.
Great news! Thanks!
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@ KPX :
Just a complete disregard for crunchers ....
No. You've received the inevitable answer given the plainly stated context here, and you're upset because I stated the obvious that you evidently haven't picked up on yet.
...
You fail to realize an important fact. BOINC crunchers have valid expectations of new projects.
BOINC was setup to draw volunteers to donate time and money to interesting scientific projects, in exchange for nothing more than the fun of collecting credits. That is the unwritten contract between projects and crunchers. Projects "promise" to do interesting non-commercial (mostly) science and behave fairly in giving fair credit, and crunchers "promise" to donate time on their HW and help the project developers with feedback on the forums.
This is a "contract" that was validated by most crunchers' experience on most projects. And that was the expectation here at Albert@home as well.
Regarding your contributions here, Mike, there is nothing polite in them, not your tone, and not the content. You have not stated the obvious, you have stated the unexpected. Yours is not even disregard, it's a plain contempt... and a blatant breach of the above mentioned "contract". Well, I just hope the projects that treat crunchers fairly remain in majority.
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i knew this would happen..
them hardcore crunchers out here and a project which went public and now is telling us this was not intended.
did anyone out here break open the doors?
do you really think you can get all the different platforms and setups for testing anywhere else than from us - not even talking about for nothing but credits?
get serious, think twice and pull the plug or not.
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FWIW, my view is that stats are exported they are free to be used by anyone. Doesn't take much effort to look in the stats directory and see if there are any up to date tables in there; If there are, use them :)
You come into a shop, and find a penny on the floor. You silently put that in your pocket, claiming it yours. Next day you come into the same shop and find another penny. Again, you put it in your pocket. And so the next day. And the next. And so forth for a month. Then comes a day where you don't find a penny. What do you do? Sue the owner of the shop?
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You come into a shop ...
Slightly odd analogy :)
But then I live in the Utopian world where BOINC is open, relies on the generosity of volunteers and has a strong community spirit. I should take off my rose-tinted spectacles perhaps :)
Dude, I'm on your side.
Wipe the stats and get DA to ask the stats sites to remove the cached stats. That's a joke BTW :)
It was unfortunate that stats ever got exported. The best exit strategy for all concerned seems to be the path you've taken - Export for a while, then stop having warned everyone. Then we can all stay friends :)
Al.
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It does say if you care about Credits then this project is certainly not the right one for you. That's fine & I'm sure if we're helping then we don't really care about the Credits but as in all other Previous Test Projects before this one the Participants were rewarded with some sort of Credit however small it was.
Most of us know things go bad in a Test Project but we're willing to put up with it for that little bit of Reward so that's where some of the Expectations came in probably ... IMHO
Is this general consensus?
So far I didn't know and didn't care about "all other Previous Test Projects", that's why I asked D.A.
I certainly don't care about credit at all here, and all I want is not to have to.
If you (and the stat sites) can live with credit "however small it is", being granted unreliably and fluctuating, and won't complain whatever happens, I could as well leave the stats export on. After all, it's just a switch in the project configuration.
BM
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If you (and the stat sites) can live with credit "however small it is", being granted unreliably and fluctuating, and won't complain whatever happens, I could as well leave the stats export on. After all, it's just a switch in the project configuration.
That works for me. It is what happens at other test projects, so I would expect others would be fine with it too. Or at least they would be used to to it. I will be around regardless.
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Is this general consensus?
most likely - you won't find drive-by crunchers here, but probably only those of us who dare...
So far I didn't know and didn't care about "all other Previous Test Projects", that's why I asked D.A.
that's another misconecption!
DA has his very own ideas - and sometimes this has absolutely nothing to do with what those people think that provide the cycles to run boincworld.
If you (and the stat sites) can live with credit "however small it is", being granted unreliably and fluctuating, and won't complain whatever happens, I could as well leave the stats export on.
grant a single credit for every WU and call it a deal.
After all, it's just a switch in the project configuration.
not really - all that hassle about a switch? ;)
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@ KPX : You're the victim of your own assumptions and contradictions - I suggest that you re-read yourself and reflect.
@ Frank :
get serious, think twice and pull the plug or not.
As Bernd just said "I certainly don't care about credit at all here, and all I want is not to have to." and "and won't complain whatever happens"
In any case, this ground is now old, whatever precepts that you thought that you arrived with. You should be certainly under no illusions now.
Cheers, Mike.
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FWIW, my view is that stats are exported they are free to be used by anyone. Doesn't take much effort to look in the stats directory and see if there are any up to date tables in there; If there are, use them :)
You come into a shop, and find a penny on the floor. You silently put that in your pocket, claiming it yours. Next day you come into the same shop and find another penny. Again, you put it in your pocket. And so the next day. And the next. And so forth for a month. Then comes a day where you don't find a penny. What do you do? Sue the owner of the shop?
BM
Except that you are the one taking the pennies!!! LOL
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@ KPX : You're the victim of your own assumptions and contradictions - I suggest that you re-read yourself and reflect.
...
No need to do so. I know what I write. You don't seem to.
BOINC I do for fun. You spoil it, for no reason. That's silly. You have fun doing that?
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BTW: In what sense is Albert@Home different from an alpha test project, in particular related to credit?
Seeing how some people here still see Albert as a separate project, I'll use Bernd's question. This project differs from alpha or beta projects in that it will never be a full project on its own. Once they have the applications and back-end working here, they move those to the main project (Einstein), and I assume they shut this down, until they have more to test.
The alpha and beta projects mentioned will run work, be it just to keep the users happy, while they aren't testing anything. That's presumably not going to be the case here.
In the case of starting up a project, it'll go through alpha or beta stages, and will eventually grow into a full production project. That's also not the case here.
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Jord.
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Bernd wrote:BTW: In what sense is Albert@Home different from an alpha test project, in particular related to credit?
Seeing how some people here still see Albert as a separate project, I'll use Bernd's question. This project differs from alpha or beta projects in that it will never be a full project on its own. Once they have the applications and back-end working here, they move those to the main project (Einstein), and I assume they shut this down, until they have more to test
Right. Albert is like RALPH, SETI Beta, and Amelegrid Testgrid. These are all dedicated test projects too. They will never progress to "production" status.
The need for separate projects (any more) is not clear to me. A while back, they added the functionality in the BOINC server code to have opt-in on test apps/tasks for users. That allows the project to have test work available to only those that opt into it, in their project preferences. It seem to me that way would be less work for projects. But whatever, it works either way.
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Bernd MachenschalkVolunteer moderator
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The need for separate projects (any more) is not clear to me. A while back, they added the functionality in the BOINC server code to have opt-in on test apps/tasks for users. That allows the project to have test work available to only those that opt into it, in their project preferences. It seem to me that way would be less work for projects. But whatever, it works either way.
From the original post Ageless was referring to:
We can and would test new applications (and application versions) either privately or on the main project. What we intend to test on Albert is server side code that can't be tested on the main project without risking serious damage. The OpenCL support of BOINC requires server side modifications, too, that's why we test the OpenCL apps here.
BM
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Ah. Well there you go. Good to know about the server-side stuff.
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Bernd MachenschalkVolunteer moderator
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After all, it's just a switch in the project configuration.
not really - all that hassle about a switch? ;)
Not really. It's more about the (possible, imagined) commitment I make with flipping that switch in one or the other direction.
Might sound weird, but indeed I am new to "public test projects". I was pretty surprised when some months ago I heard that Albert@Home was known to anyone outside the inner circle of Einstein@Home developers.
BM
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I think if not consensus then atleast alot of people will help out as long as you need their help.
I think.
When app is complete and moved to Main, people will follow and continue to use it on Main. And some people will continue with other alpha beta projects to help the boinc community grow...
And I also think that when app is "complete and working".
It will be tested more and improvement of the app will continue to it's perfection here at non-alpha/beta project.
A penny is a penny.
A credit is just a number.
Boinc community is based and built on thoose numbers.
I start to think here wheather the question at hand is: Do you want our help here..... I think you can benefit from us, but I might also be wrong.
//TQ
Is this general consensus?
So far I didn't know and didn't care about "all other Previous Test Projects", that's why I asked D.A.
I certainly don't care about credit at all here, and all I want is not to have to.
If you (and the stat sites) can live with credit "however small it is", being granted unreliably and fluctuating, and won't complain whatever happens, I could as well leave the stats export on. After all, it's just a switch in the project configuration.
BM
[/quote]
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Albert@Home stats are currently being exported, I intend to shut this down late this week. There will be a news item (including RSS) at least 24h in advance.
But I still like to understand what happened here, how & why people that are only interested in credit ever attached a host to this project. This project was never meant to attract this kind of attention. I'd like to avoid such misunderstanding in the future.
BM
On checking your project, I see that you are a BOINC project. You are running their software and you advertised how to join your project. BOINC projects are credit based projects as the only thank you a project can give to a user is via a metric called cobbnlestones or credits. Your project be it a Test or Alpha project contributes nothing towards the maintenance of our machines or to the cost of Electricity. The least you could do to thank those that have contributed their time and cost to help you is to advertize those credits given by exporting the stats. If you do not wish to give credit, that is your provocative but you should not be using BOINC software for private testing.
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Well, this thready is already plenty long, so I guess my .02 won't hurt.
I never understood the deal with credit/cobblestones anyway. I thought the 1 credit per 1 WU from the original Seti@home was just fine.
/shrug
In any case, psychologically I think 0 is a little nebulous for some people. I think as long as there is some indicator of contribution, most are happy. As far as alpha testing goes, I'm just here to help the OpenCL along so I can use my ATi Gpu's and could care less about credit in this setting.
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I have finished one WU on my CPU after 61 hours and I got the same credit of a wingman using OpenCL who finished in little more than one hour, but I knew the rules of the game and accepted them. I am also running Test4Theory@home first as an Alpha and now as a Beta project. I like testing new software, otherwise BOINC programs are just dull.
Tullio
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BOINC projects are credit based projects as the only thank you a project can give to a user is via a metric called cobbnlestones or credits.
Where does it say that a project needs to give credits/cobblestones?
Where does it say how many?
Where does it say that those have to be exported?
And again, to explain further what this project does, Bernd wrote in this message:
We can and would test new applications (and application versions) either privately or on the main project. What we intend to test on Albert is server side code that can't be tested on the main project without risking serious damage. The OpenCL support of BOINC requires server side modifications, too, that's why we test the OpenCL apps here.
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Jord.
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BOINC projects are credit based projects as the only thank you a project can give to a user is via a metric called cobbnlestones or credits.
Where does it say that a project needs to give credits/cobblestones?
Where does it say how many?
Where does it say that those have to be exported?
And again, to explain further what this project does, Bernd wrote in this message:
We can and would test new applications (and application versions) either privately or on the main project. What we intend to test on Albert is server side code that can't be tested on the main project without risking serious damage. The OpenCL support of BOINC requires server side modifications, too, that's why we test the OpenCL apps here.
I dunno where it doesn't say....The "where does" are good questions though....
99% of all other boinc projects does this credit thing.
Have you missed that ageless?
And I would like to add that i support BM in what he is trying to accomplish here at Albert.
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What we have here is an issue of 'locus of control' - who is running the shop?
With all sorts of arguments presented - of varying bases - and subsequent annoyance by some of the failure of the proposal that the act of volunteering requires/demands that their wishes be met, when all it really needs to resolve is that they simply don't volunteer their equipment for use. So in practical terms it's a simple resolution, as advertised.
Also it would appear that most posters have missed the self evident practical problem that offering credit implies some time consuming and frequently fruitless interaction ( as exquisitely demonstrated here ) with people that are quite unable to take no as an answer, however expressed. And that often depends upon people's personal horizon of interest and level of maturity ( a wide array of both ). That is the base reason for not offering credit here at Albert. We need a test milieu without the endless complication of such interactions. Clearly some see that as a dangerous paradigm to allow ..... :-)
Please keep discussing though, as I'm sure some sociologist one day may wish to view this, probably to sort out the question of "what were those credits all about?". :-)
Personally I think the time will come when credits will die, for the practical reason of the type of inefficiencies as demonstrated here in this thread. An enterprise that is touting for outside help by definition also may lack resources to take on the extra burden thus entailed. To wit : the effort required to keep 'noisy' crunchers happy may not be offset by their gifts. Have any of those complaining here considered that - or do we divert, yet again, to emotional landscaping?
Cheers, Mike.
( edit ) Oh, I forgot to mention : this is a science project looking for astronomical events. ;-)
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lol
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That's good, very good !
As ever, humor is the answer .... :-)
Cheers, Mike.
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Ok...
The shop as you call it, is not a shop like no other...Why?
If this is a magic shop whith some universal stuff at hand that has already solved the answers of the universe.... Why not tell us??
I quote BM: What we intend to test on Albert is server side code that can't be tested on the main project without risking serious damage. The OpenCL support of BOINC requires server side modifications, too, that's why we test the OpenCL apps here.
What is it he really says here....?
Is there already an OpenCl app ready here?
All that is needed is the boinc managers OpenCl support to work with the server side software to work with the app.
Well, that is my interpretation here. And of course I am wrong as usuall.
And I still have an open question to "jord(ageless) of what he is doing here.
I, myself ansered him that I joined up to see if I could help with a few tasks.
He's reply was as he replied to me. I ignore you.
And Mike, Isn't a forum supposed to be used?
I haven't seen any complaining....
Only questions that aren't really answered....
The answers only generates more questions...
The "Don't expect anything to work here", In this forum everything works at peak performance. I guess that's why I am still here.
-=A metafore or whatever it is called=-
Once there was a guy that suggested he could get hold of a 100 000 computors to "build" a supercomputor. He did that at SETI@Home long before boinc was thought of. He made a screansaver so that "ordinary" people could help him with his project and also with the project itself that was SETI@HOME.
Now with boinc and some more then a 100 000 computors attached to it.
Someone here might not want to see that it is volontary people here with all kinds of different science/tech/social interest. Real human beings.
Me babling about lots of non of use stuff here....
//TQ
What we have here is an issue of 'locus of control' - who is running the shop?
With all sorts of arguments presented - of varying bases - and subsequent annoyance by some of the failure of the proposal that the act of volunteering requires/demands that their wishes be met, when all it really needs to resolve is that they simply don't volunteer their equipment for use. So in practical terms it's a simple resolution, as advertised.
Also it would appear that most posters have missed the self evident practical problem that offering credit implies some time consuming and frequently fruitless interaction ( as exquisitely demonstrated here ) with people that are quite unable to take no as an answer, however expressed. And that often depends upon people's personal horizon of interest and level of maturity ( a wide array of both ). That is the base reason for not offering credit here at Albert. We need a test milieu without the endless complication of such interactions. Clearly some see that as a dangerous paradigm to allow ..... :-)
Please keep discussing though, as I'm sure some sociologist one day may wish to view this, probably to sort out the question of "what were those credits all about?". :-)
Personally I think the time will come when credits will die, for the practical reason of the type of inefficiencies as demonstrated here in this thread. An enterprise that is touting for outside help by definition also may lack resources to take on the extra burden thus entailed. To wit : the effort required to keep 'noisy' crunchers happy may not be offset by their gifts. Have any of those complaining here considered that - or do we divert, yet again, to emotional landscaping?
Cheers, Mike.
( edit ) Oh, I forgot to mention : this is a science project looking for astronomical events. ;-)
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Yes humour is good :)
//TQ
That's good, very good !
As ever, humor is the answer .... :-)
Cheers, Mike.
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Ok...
Me babling about lots of non of use stuff here....
I really can't follow any of what you're saying, but thanks for the effort anyway ... :-)
Please forgive me if I don't follow this thread closely at all from here on, I have other fish to fry. :-)
Cheers, Mike.
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Please do fry em.
And yes, I forgive you.
//TQ
Ok...
Me babling about lots of non of use stuff here....
I really can't follow any of what you're saying, but thanks for the effort anyway ... :-)
Please forgive me if I don't follow this thread closely at all from here on, I have other fish to fry. :-)
Cheers, Mike.
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